The guys at MCM got an S2K.

"TurboSloth" (TheTurboSloth) 12/11/2013 at 23:26 • Filed to: None

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I've always wanted a S2K. Really interested in where this goes.

All Motor Is Best Motor > TurboSloth 12/11/2013 at 23:45

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After driving a car where all the power starts after 4,000 RPM (J32A2 VTEC in my CL Type S), I really don't think I would want an S2000. You can't use any of its power on the street legally unless you want to drive around at 6,000 RPM all the time, making all sorts of racket, engine braking like mad, and using fuel like crazy. I would consider supercharging one if I got one, that's for sure. I mean, I would love to have a RWD manual 2 seat sports car that's faster than a Miata, but I just hate hitting the throttle at low revs and getting very little.

Casper > All Motor Is Best Motor 12/12/2013 at 00:14

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You must not understand how gears work...

Casper > TurboSloth 12/12/2013 at 00:17

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I'm curious how they go about modding it (and hoping they don't ruin it). S2000s are very precise, most people make them much worse by lowering them, throwing generic a turbo on them, etc. It takes a lot of planning, research, and dyno time, to set one up correctly.... if they are trying to get both cars into the 12's and still road race worthy.

It would be great if they do it and do a good step by step process as they have done on some topics in the past.

All Motor Is Best Motor > Casper 12/12/2013 at 00:37

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I understand very well how gears work. My point is that you don't need to be driving around in a super low gear all the time every time you want a quick application of power.

Casper > All Motor Is Best Motor 12/12/2013 at 00:50

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You don't, you just change gear when you want to change between torque and horsepower. That's how the equation works and why gears are matched to specific performance points with specific overlap.

I'm probably being harsh, but I have driven and owned vehicles (including an S2000) from tiny displacement high reving engines to monster v8s to diesel trucks, and statements like this annoy the crap out of me. The completion of work over time by each engine is specific to it's application and they are matched to transmissions and differentials that provide access to the proper number of RPMs as needed. Any problem in the equation is the driver's ability/operation or the fundamental expectation of the engineer (which almost never happens in mass production where profit is the motivation).

Your issues almost certainly revolve not around the RPM band of the engine, but the fact your comparable vehicle lacked 40 HP and have 200+ more pounds of weight in 4 cylinder form and only gained 20 HP in v6 form while gaining another 200lbs. Weight is the critical component in the relation to your driving experience.

All Motor Is Best Motor > Casper 12/12/2013 at 01:13

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You don't understand. You shouldn't need to downshift every time you want a burst of acceleration. Now obviously if you downshift to the proper gear at the proper speed you're going to get a much better acceleration response than not down shifting regardless of the engine's torque and power band, but it's nice when you can actually accelerate to make a passing maneuver without having to drop 3 gears.

That, and a lot of transmissions DON'T keep the engine in the PERFECT power band for every situation. There are times when downshifting to where you would get the best power applies too much engine braking before you can get back on the throttle, and that can become a problem. Not only that, but you can't exactly downshift for better acceleration from a dead stop. I'm not an idiot, don't treat me as such, you just aren't understanding my point.

Casper > All Motor Is Best Motor 12/12/2013 at 10:12

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Again, all your examples are of driver error or misuse of a vehicle type. If you drive an F1 car incorrectly and try to accelerate in the wrong gear, it won't do well either. That doesn't mean the engines power band is wrong, it means your driving is. Just like you wouldn't try to use the gearing from a NASCAR to go rock crawling, you can't complain that a road race configuration with 6 or 7 speeds is bad because it doesn't allow you to instantly accelerate in any gear.

Since you seem to be arguing that you have a great deal of experience with this situation, please give me some examples of seat time with an S2000 that would enable you to make this example. I would also be interested to hear what car you are referencing that has absolute mechanical advantage in any gear as well.

All Motor Is Best Motor > Casper 12/12/2013 at 12:55

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I never said I had experience with an S2000, don't be a douche and put words in my mouth. I never said I wanted instant acceleration either. My friend owns a Boss 302, and he says the owners manual tells him to shift straight into fourth from first after starting off for better fuel mileage. That is an example of an engine that is capable of providing adequate acceleration in a gear other than "the proper gear". The engine makes enough torque at low RPM to accelerate at a normal rate in what might be considered an "improper" gear. No, I haven't driven or ridden in the car because sadly he moved to New Mexico to follow a job, but it's the same none the less. And again, you can't always be in the perfect spot at the power band every time you shift. There are times when say you're in fourth and you want a lot more acceleration, but shifting into second gear might only give you about two seconds of acceleration before you would need to shift. SO, you shift into third but now the RPM's are lower than you'd like and not quite yet in the peak power band. It's situations like these where engines that make more torque at lower RPMs are much better for road use. You can't ALWAYS be in the perfect gear at the perfect time on the road unless you're driving illegally or obnoxiously.

Casper > All Motor Is Best Motor 12/12/2013 at 13:17

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I started to write a reply with the math for calculating ratios for you and explaining the relation between a Boss 302 with a 3.7 final drive and an S2000 with a 4.1 as well as comparing a car with over double the displacement and cylinders in a heavy vehicle vs higher revs in a smaller vehicle (which you acknowledged you have never driven), but your last sentence pretty much sums up your attitude.

anothermiatafanboy > Casper 12/12/2013 at 13:26

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I think your missing his point. You bring up an f1 car. Which of course has an amazing powerband. But not for the street. The s2k powerband would be fine on a track if you know how and when to shift, but on the street there are times it could benefit from more torque. You are willing to tear this guy apart for saying an s2k could use a bit more torque, which is compleeetely valid. Sheesh, fanboys. P.s. I would kill for an S2K, torque deficit or no..

Casper > anothermiatafanboy 12/12/2013 at 13:38

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The thing is I have driven daily and raced an S2000 and they aren't short on torque for the weight. I'm not a fanboy, which is why I traded out the S2000 for something better. I just hate people talking out their ass without actual knowledge. It's just a misrepresentation made by people who have "heard" they are torqueless. The reality is they have a relativly flat torque band like most properly ratio'd engines. Here's an example:

The reality is that it's not a matter of power band, that's thy we have multiple gears to find the band. The issue is that he doesn't like the ratio for what he is comparing it to... which is something with much more power and displacement. The same myth is always spread about rotary engines, yet they are constantly breaking drive lines and differentials just like other engines.

anothermiatafanboy > Casper 12/13/2013 at 10:52

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I feel like you may be arguing for no reason. You are both right. You are right that it has a flat torqueband and he is right that that flat band is pretty damn low on that dyno chart. It has a flat torque band, just not much area under it. You are right that the low torque is not a problem if you know how to drive it. And he is right that when cruising in top gear at 50 mph the s2k has ZERO chance of pushing you back in your seat with a simple prod of the throttle, something many cars could do. I think you both make valid points, you just seem hellbent on telling him that he is wrong.

Casper > anothermiatafanboy 12/13/2013 at 20:50

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That's a lack of power vs a power band issue. My whole issue was his sentences like "You can't use any of it's power on the street legally" which were complete garbage. There is nothing illegal about shifting gears to accelerate and to say you have to be at 6,000 rpm is obvious BS as the torque is only changing by less than 10 in the VTECH transition.

Even arguing it doesn't have enough power doesn't make sense when you are talking about a 13 second convertible from 1999. Under that logic, nearly every non-performance car on the market is undrivable.

anothermiatafanboy > Casper 12/17/2013 at 10:51

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I would never say a small roadster with 240 glorious 8000+ rpm horsepower is underpowered. And anyone who does is just silly. Hell I can have plenty of fun and I have 100 less horsepower than that. I think it comes down to preference. I have never bothered shifting a lot to keep my Hondas where they need to be in the rpm range to make power. For some though, they want lots of power everywhere in the rev range, like a Camaro SS, BMW 335i, etc.. and obviously for those people the S2K is lacking, though my advice to them is usually to go grow a pair.